Rehydrating beans - any experience?
Re: Rehydrating beans - any experience?
Hi @nrdlnd, you can adjust "roast level" at the Profile Settings - it's at the very bottom. KL suggests to maintain the logic behind these levels so you always know that 3 is a medium roast, etc. It also avoids confusion between roast profiles and need to remember what level means in each profile, it gives you uniformity between all profiles.
Re: Rehydrating beans - any experience?
@TheBean Thank you for the tip! I will look at it and if it's really possible or manageable. There are many scales for roast degrees and there is no "standard" as different scales are most often coupled to special very expensive meters such as Agtron. Agtron has different scales. There is for example a "Gourmet" scale. They say that the roast degree is to 80% defined by color measurements and 20% by other factors.
With the KL I can set what I define as "Light" at a special end temperature (this can vary between profiles and maybe also beans). For example if I "think" that this is a light roast as it corresponds to what is "light" in my culture and the scale I'm using it may not be the same for another user.
Another potential problem is that with the KL it is the temperature that defines the roast degree. Do I have to set a specific temperature for every roast degree and is it possible? If it's possible it could be a lot of work and also wasting of beans. If I write in the profile description what "L" I recommend as a starting point and what roast degree it gives I think it could be sufficient when I share a profile or modifications that I've made to a profile together with other specific data. With KL:s official profiles I think it's meaningful that ”3" is something near "medium" though. Well this was a long rant from me. What do you think?
Cheers
With the KL I can set what I define as "Light" at a special end temperature (this can vary between profiles and maybe also beans). For example if I "think" that this is a light roast as it corresponds to what is "light" in my culture and the scale I'm using it may not be the same for another user.
Another potential problem is that with the KL it is the temperature that defines the roast degree. Do I have to set a specific temperature for every roast degree and is it possible? If it's possible it could be a lot of work and also wasting of beans. If I write in the profile description what "L" I recommend as a starting point and what roast degree it gives I think it could be sufficient when I share a profile or modifications that I've made to a profile together with other specific data. With KL:s official profiles I think it's meaningful that ”3" is something near "medium" though. Well this was a long rant from me. What do you think?
Cheers
Re: Rehydrating beans - any experience?
@nrdlnd Hi, it should be relatively easy to set the levels: you can set Level 3 @ 30% DTR temperature and then extrapulate rest of the values. (tip: when you're changing target level at the front page, it is adjusting DTR % and temperature on the right and allows you to correlate final roast level, temperature & DTR)
Re: Rehydrating beans - any experience?
Hi @TheBean,
I don't quite agree. I almost never go as high as 30% DTR and I'm not sure that is a medium roast. What I'm trying to achieve is a developed Light/Medium light roast. The roast degrees or "levels" in the KL is defined by the end temperature and they are possible to set one by one. When I for example roast with a profile and stop at for example DTR 21% I happened to get a medium light roast level. I can't extrapolate from that but it's possible to try different DTR or developing times or roast levels from that starting point. To set all the roast levels "correct" you will have to make several roasts and make colorimetric measurements and then try to correspond them to the KL end temperature. And what scale should you use and what meter and metering technique? I have put a question to KL Support about what defines roast levels with the KL and I haven't got an answer.
EDIT: What is a "Medium" roast level. Some people say it's in the middle between 1st and 2nd crack. To set this you then have to make a roast that goes all the way from 1st to 2nd crack. Yes this is possible to do but where are the other levels? Where are "Medium Light" and "Medium Dark"? Some people call "Medium Light" for "City" but for some are "City" = "Medium". Then you can measure the color of the bean and this instrument has it's own scale. The color of the bean can tell the roast degree up to max 80% according to some sources. The other 20% are influenced by other factors.
I think this is complicated and there is no easy answer. Not to make it more complicated I think its the best to do as I propose above. Roast level depends not only on end temperature but on the profile (Short? Extended?) Bean moisture and other properties with the beans may affect.
Besides I deleted my profile as it didn't work well with another bean. There were a tendency to a ROR crash and not sufficient power. I will try again but now without the power zone at the end and instead let the PID do it's work. I'll report back.
Cheers
I don't quite agree. I almost never go as high as 30% DTR and I'm not sure that is a medium roast. What I'm trying to achieve is a developed Light/Medium light roast. The roast degrees or "levels" in the KL is defined by the end temperature and they are possible to set one by one. When I for example roast with a profile and stop at for example DTR 21% I happened to get a medium light roast level. I can't extrapolate from that but it's possible to try different DTR or developing times or roast levels from that starting point. To set all the roast levels "correct" you will have to make several roasts and make colorimetric measurements and then try to correspond them to the KL end temperature. And what scale should you use and what meter and metering technique? I have put a question to KL Support about what defines roast levels with the KL and I haven't got an answer.
EDIT: What is a "Medium" roast level. Some people say it's in the middle between 1st and 2nd crack. To set this you then have to make a roast that goes all the way from 1st to 2nd crack. Yes this is possible to do but where are the other levels? Where are "Medium Light" and "Medium Dark"? Some people call "Medium Light" for "City" but for some are "City" = "Medium". Then you can measure the color of the bean and this instrument has it's own scale. The color of the bean can tell the roast degree up to max 80% according to some sources. The other 20% are influenced by other factors.
I think this is complicated and there is no easy answer. Not to make it more complicated I think its the best to do as I propose above. Roast level depends not only on end temperature but on the profile (Short? Extended?) Bean moisture and other properties with the beans may affect.
Besides I deleted my profile as it didn't work well with another bean. There were a tendency to a ROR crash and not sufficient power. I will try again but now without the power zone at the end and instead let the PID do it's work. I'll report back.
Cheers
Re: Rehydrating beans - any experience?
@nrdlnd Agree, roast levels is another debateable topic however what I was suggesting is to set an approximate level relative to DTR so at least the bulk part will be right instead of, for example, having 20% DTR at level 1 when you can't go any lower if you wish to. We always can perfect and complicate thing at the later stage.
Re: Rehydrating beans - any experience?
@TheBean I think we agree. I think as you that it had been better if it had been possible to give levels that were about the same for all profiles and I think if you make a profile from scratch you can try to do that. I haven't been prepared to do that yet so I've just modified existing profiles. This is an open forum and if you give credit to the original designer and also in the "About" section notice this it must be OK.
The problem is that when the modifications makes the "L" to change in some direction you will have to change all levels. This doesn't happen automatically. I think it's sufficient to report the approximate roast degree at a specific level. The DTR for this L, the amount of beans loaded, the end weight of the beans and the end temperature. Of course also the type of bean. Then I think it's possible to reproduce the result for another KL user. This is a starting point as it's always with any profile. I have noticed that in the manual KL recommends users to use "grading" and that means to make several roasts at different "L" to find out what they like best. This is possible to do if you have a starting point.
The problem is that when the modifications makes the "L" to change in some direction you will have to change all levels. This doesn't happen automatically. I think it's sufficient to report the approximate roast degree at a specific level. The DTR for this L, the amount of beans loaded, the end weight of the beans and the end temperature. Of course also the type of bean. Then I think it's possible to reproduce the result for another KL user. This is a starting point as it's always with any profile. I have noticed that in the manual KL recommends users to use "grading" and that means to make several roasts at different "L" to find out what they like best. This is possible to do if you have a starting point.
Re: Rehydrating beans - any experience?
I have replaced the power zone at the end of the profile with an ordinary negative -2 boost zone. I have made two roasts with two different beans. Max needed power for the roasts became 1.34-1.35kW. One Ethiopian Amaro Gayo Natural and one Uganda Mzee Revival Mt Elgon Fully washed. The Amaro Gayo smaller heirloom beans and the Uganda more traditional beans like in Kenia SL28 and SL34. Both roasts went well but with the Uganda there was a bean stuck to the probe. It may not have affected the roast too much as it could have been stuck late in the roast or during the cooling phase.
The Uganda ended at L=1.3 at 21% DTR and 82.8g from a 95g batch and 5g water rehydrated to 16% during 16hours. It became Medium Light with end temp 216.7 C. I tasted it as filter coffee after 48 hours and it was nice but not very special. It had a balanced cup with mild but nice acidity. Clean nice aftertaste.
The Amaro Gayo natural ended at L=1.4 with 21% DTR. It became Medium Light. 81.5 g from 95g batch + 5g water rehydrated to 16% after 10 hours. Rather OK curves but may need smaller modifications to become even better. The end of the roast much better without the power zone. End temperature 217.3 C. I may stop this one a little earlier the next time. I tasted it after 36 hours: This became a taste bomb. Nice acidity. Winey? Very fruity and aromatic. Balanced. This is one of the best Ethiopians that I've tasted.
I will have a small Birthday dinner this evening and my guests will have the possibility to taste the two different coffes to the cake. Blind for them but not for me as I want to see their reactions to the two coffees.
I wait to publish the profile until I've made further smaller changes. I haven't tried to roast the Amaro Gayo without rehydration but I may do that and compare it blind to the rehydrated beans. In that case I will roast them at the same time in succession to be able to make a fair comparison. I may do the same with the Uganda.
The Uganda ended at L=1.3 at 21% DTR and 82.8g from a 95g batch and 5g water rehydrated to 16% during 16hours. It became Medium Light with end temp 216.7 C. I tasted it as filter coffee after 48 hours and it was nice but not very special. It had a balanced cup with mild but nice acidity. Clean nice aftertaste.
The Amaro Gayo natural ended at L=1.4 with 21% DTR. It became Medium Light. 81.5 g from 95g batch + 5g water rehydrated to 16% after 10 hours. Rather OK curves but may need smaller modifications to become even better. The end of the roast much better without the power zone. End temperature 217.3 C. I may stop this one a little earlier the next time. I tasted it after 36 hours: This became a taste bomb. Nice acidity. Winey? Very fruity and aromatic. Balanced. This is one of the best Ethiopians that I've tasted.
I will have a small Birthday dinner this evening and my guests will have the possibility to taste the two different coffes to the cake. Blind for them but not for me as I want to see their reactions to the two coffees.
I wait to publish the profile until I've made further smaller changes. I haven't tried to roast the Amaro Gayo without rehydration but I may do that and compare it blind to the rehydrated beans. In that case I will roast them at the same time in succession to be able to make a fair comparison. I may do the same with the Uganda.
Re: Rehydrating beans - any experience?
Hi
Just out of interest, when you are tasting, be it you or guests, do you refresh your palate with soda water or something else?
Cheers
G
Just out of interest, when you are tasting, be it you or guests, do you refresh your palate with soda water or something else?
Cheers
G
Re: Rehydrating beans - any experience?
We use a spoon to inhale and clean our mouths with regular water that is of good quality where we live. It was a fun experience as we haven't done this before. And it didn't quite go as I expected. I think it was even between the two coffees and we could taste different things. We are different and we taste and smell different! I have learned that before with roses for example and it's the same with coffee. And you have to learn to be able to taste and smell. This is well known especially now in Covid times when people suffering from post Covid have to learn to taste and smell again.
Cheers
Cheers